Tune into Episode 4 – Finding flow and the way back to self with Vann Dizon, right here in your browser, find it on your favourite platform (head here for the links) or keep reading for a transcript.
Neens: Hello Vann, how’s it going?
Vann: I’m good glad to be here.
Neens: You are the first ever guest on The Rules Are Made Up, that is incredible. I am so stoked and honored to have you on.
Vann: And the same for me as well. I’m actually really honored to be a part of this and be the first as well.
Neens: So I’m still partially scared, partially excited to be doing this full stop. But there is a reason I wanted to have a chat. Well, we’ve been having chats here in there for quite a while because we’ve been working together in various capacities and for quite a while.
And that was one of the reasons I wanted to bring you on so that we can kind of just you know just talk about how we’ve both helped each other probably but before we really get sort of dive into that I obviously I would have introduced you a little bit prior to this entire thing starting, but tell the listeners a little bit about yourself, like your background, what you do and why you do it?
And then maybe we can sort of go into you know how we sort of found each other if that’s the way to describe it, so take it away.
Vann: Yeah, well OK. So I am a online fitness coach now and I’ve been in the industry for about 15 years.
And through that time I’ve kind of discovered that it’s about how I relate to the people that I work with and yeah, so what I do is I coach human beings to reconnect to their purpose with fitness and build a foundation for the long game.
Redefining strength and like learn to play again. You know one of the things that I experienced with fitness, is that we’ve been caught up with how it should be based on our external and I want to take everybody back to play and enjoy that process again.
So yeah, there’s the answer.
Neens: It’s awesome and I like the like, little nudge to towards the external and almost the shoulds.
The rules that we sit like that we give movement and training and working out whatever you actually call it and you know it just so happens that the name of this show is The rules are made up but it couldn’t be clearer like that’s that that’s it right there though right?
We make up so many rules in various areas of our lives but I think movement is one of the big areas and we think we have to train a particular way. Or, you know, move a particular way and that couldn’t be further away from the truth.
So I think it’s awesome that you know there are people like you who actually help people like me, for example, understand that you know there isn’t one way to do something. There isn’t one way to achieve a particular, not even an outcome, but to like a feeling of you know, having moved your body right.
It’s not just about the “You have to put in an hour and a half and you have to be dying and in a pool of sweat at the end of it”, it’s, you know, sometimes those kinds of sessions are awesome, right I’m not gonna lie, those sessions can be amazing. But it doesn’t have to be like that all the time and can you maybe go a little bit more into how you like?
What’s your origin story? Or how you got to this point? I know this from my own journey and fitness and business and other things is we don’t start in that you know, knowing all of those things.
It’s kind of a bit, actually we get to that point because of trial and error and because of burnout and other things. So can you maybe explain a little bit more how you got to where you are as a trainer and a coach and why, like what you know what made you go “oh shit I need to change something”.
Vann: Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I would say that I was one of the OGs, for CrossFit within New Zealand. I started when it wasn’t cool. I was there when it was cool and then when it wasn’t cool again and then, yeah, so I was in one of the first Crossfits s that was ever created the first boxes that were created in in in New Zealand. Through the journey with CrossFit, like literally the rules made up back then, we didn’t know what the hell was going on and we were testing every single thing and like through that everybody else around the world was exploring all the different ways on what this fitness you know how to define fitness, you know?
Sure it was constantly varied, you know all the time, but everybody got caught up in chasing all the shiny things, whether it’s strength, whether it’s gymnastics, there was no regulating it, and we just kept pushing, you know it’s keep their testing out all the different ways that we could destroy ourselves, and that was the badge of honor.
There was a thing back then called Pukey the clown.
Neens: Yeah, I remember.
Vann: Yeah, you remember right and yeah, and if you reached it was a badge of honor and throughout that period I understood for myself and as well as a as a coach there.
Like I had to debunk some of those things because I knew there was a better way because I had different coaches, I had people that work through the training side of things, but also definitely my head and how I process things.
Yeah, so yeah, yeah in a nutshell it was about going through it myself and delivering what I was doing, so delivering the things I knew wasn’t working anymore.
You know I’d been around the block quite a long time and it was just crazy to just be delivering the same thing and expecting something new. It was insane.
Neens: Was there anything in particular that sort of made you re-evaluate? Like, did you have an injury or like you know did something else happen to sort of that got you thinking “oh maybe this isn’t the only way.”
Vann: Yeah definitely, on 2 occasions.
One I had, I got injured it was a hernia, it was something they had already had but at the time I was working full time as a personal trainer, but training two-a-days with CrossFit and then also be a singer in a band that practiced right up until 11 and then we gigged on the weekends.
And so I was like early 20s, maybe and yeah, every two months I would burn out and crash and I would definitely be awol for a week and that was just me my nervous system just said no, that’s like that’s it. But you know what? I keep doing that I keep repeating that cycle, you know until my hernia got really pushed to the limit and I actually got hospitalized. It was very painful and the humbling part on the back end of that was that I am, I realized that carrying two shopping bags was so hard.
And I had experienced what it was like for all of that to be taken away and to reflect on what it meant to be fit and the purpose for my fitness versus chasing this thing that I didn’t really understand.
So I wanted to ask better questions and I wanted to build myself in a better way so I can keep going. Yeah, so definitely it was injury and then later on because I’ve been around CrossFit for a long time was hurting my back. I got really fit, I got to that level and I mean, let’s, you know, let’s be honest, like injury as part of that process but I knew I wasn’t doing it right because I was always maxing out finding the red line and these are words that like used to taste sweet on my tongue and now I realize that you don’t have to, you know who made those rules up on that you have to get here to be better.
Because, you know, and that’s the greatest thing about Crossfit, is that you can strengthen your areas in one area, but then you’ll be weaker and somewhere else so it’s all about bringing it up together.
And how do you do that? By actually having a plan and you know, and the plan meaning not just the training but the intrinsic stuff, the mental work.
Neens: The recovery all the stuff around it, right?
Vann: Right one of it, yeah.
Neens: Because it’s it’s not, and I think that’s something that is so important, and I think a lot of us (myself included) I think aren’t used to, you know looking at, even though we know we’re one human, and we have work and we have, you know, fitness goals and we have, you know, maybe we have families and partners and kids or fur babies or all of the things but we still kind of almost look at things in a compartmentalised way, and we have like a fitness box and we have a work box and we have a relationship box.
And we’re like we don’t necessarily fully understand, that shit all intersects like we’re one human having to navigate and open and close and open and close all those boxes.
You know, and I don’t know where can’t keep the the analogy of the metaphor going, but you know if you have a shit work day that’s gonna impact how you show up in the gym.
Or if you injure yourself and you’re a pain, that’s going to impact how you show up across the board, right? Because if you’re in pain, you’re in pain, and I think that is a big lesson that I’ve had to learn over the last year and a bit in particular with my own injuries, but also in my business and you know, doing like even doing this thing right now.
They don’t exist in isolation, and so understanding that and really starting to work with that, I think is a massive, massive thing.
Vann: Yeah, yeah, it’s a great reminder that you know all of it is inclusive, you know, and they’re all interconnected and when we miss that we realize that those are the missing pieces, you know.
Vann: Yeah yeah, especially with injury, right? You forget that activity is inclusive outside of the gym.
Neens: Oh yeah.
Vann: You know you’re right, yeah, so.
Neens: Yeah, doing landscaping, going for walks, doing, you know, housework even like, you know, putting the ******* vacuum over every single room in your house isn’t nothing.
Vann: Yeah, so it’s a yeah it was definitely a humbling experience to know that and you reevaluate things and that’s where that’s where I am now.
I have those conversations with everybody in regards to, you know, let’s have look at all the other things in your life. And then let’s have a look at what you believe and what you don’t believe.
Let’s debunk some of the things that aren’t true.
Neens: Let’s challenge, that’s a great Segway there ’cause that’s partly what I want to do with this show but I think that there’s also a big part of I think the work that I still do on myself, but also with clients.
It’s the challenging the thinking of you know, and not in a negative way either, right?
And maybe we can talk a little bit more about that, and the conversations we’ve had in the in the past.
I think maybe before we do that actually, and sorry, this is a bit of a zigzaggy conversation, but it’s just how it is.
Cause we started working together in a coaching container as part of you know I was coaching and supporting you and maybe we can talk a little bit about that but then sort of almost as that was coming to an end, we kind of flipped the tables and then you helped me with programming and kind of challenging my thinking and my approach to movement and navigating 2 injuries that I I’m still rehabbing, but I’m in a much bit different place and I’d say better place now than I was six months ago, so we’ve kind of been on both sides of the city coaching client relationship with each other, so maybe we can share a little bit more about that too, ’cause I think I find it’s a little bit amusing there.
Obviously we’re both based in New Zealand, but in completely different, well on the same island, to be fair, but at different at different ends.
For those of you not familiar with New Zealand, we have think technically three, mostly known islands, the North Island, the South Island and Stewart Island.
But I’m in Wellington which is at the lower North Island, basically at the South Coast of the North Island, but you’re based a little bit further up north in the Waikato.
Not necessarily a super close, but we also didn’t know each other until last year sometime, but we actually found each other through a business mentor that we both worked with so which is somewhere hilarious considering we actually both in the same country.
Vann: Yeah, definitely I know right? I don’t know where I would start this. I think it would be through working with Christina Montalvo.
A lot of the things that I experienced through there was a lot ’cause during that year last year, you know 2021 I had decided I wanted to move away from Auckland into the country and then dive into this online business which is completely out of my comfort and also to move out of the city.
You know, I’ve lived in Auckland for most of my life.
Neens: In case we have any people not in New Zealand, Auckland is the biggest city in the country, it’s got like over a million or not almost two I don’t even know how many people living in it now, but it’s like massive metropolis style city just for context
Vann: Yeah, and then moving into a town that’s made up of, I think 7000 people.
Neens: Wow, that’s quite a change.
Vann: Right, yeah it.
Neens: It’s quite a change.
Vann: Is right yeah and I think they add the people that drive through there as well. But yeah, doing the work on my online business with Christina, we really dug deep into how we frame things and how to create this business that we really love and a lot of those things is understanding what your fears are, what your boundaries are and how to visit that part of yourself so it can connect with your business.
And then I listened to one of her podcasts and you were on that. Yeah, so and I was like I like the way she speaks because it’s a, you know this whole podcast, like you both do ,like you embrace the imperfect.
And it just flowed and I felt like I was like, oh, I’m going to reach out to Neens and have a look at the program that she’s delivering. And then I got onto a call with you and yeah, that is exactly, I was like “yeah we’re going to get along”. Especially when it comes to this stuff we touched on with Christina as hard as it was during that time, I knew that I needed to go a little bit deeper and I needed to have the support and to explore a little bit more and I knew that as a coach I had some tools that I needed to develop or yeah or to even learn.
And doing that with you was like pivotal, not just as a coach, but as a person as well. The way I process things now with the tools that you have given me with the inner compass, it was just, like I can actually breathe and I can actually process things differently.
People talk about how they want things financially, but they never really do like a quarterly check-in or even a yearly, so they’re annually check-in with themselves with their what they’re doing is actually the right thing and it was you that actually helped me form those questions or ask those questions so that I had purpose.
You know so it made me want to jump up every morning and get on with my day because I’d finally connected this, it was congruent with what I believed in.
A lot of the concepts I had already known, like developing awareness and it was just examples and also having you come to talk to me about it and to process it, which is the most important thing about coaching right?
Yeah, yeah, ’cause there’s so much free stuff online, but it’s about the support and yeah, it was definitely a pivotal time for me in like in my own self development and my coaching so.
Yeah, it’s yeah there’s there’s so much to say about that, like so much to say, but yeah, there’s so much to say, yeah.
Neens: Keep going, I don’t want to stop you just because I mean I really appreciate the kind words and for anyone listening, I’ll obviously link to that program in the show notes and you can feel free to message me if you’ve got questions and things like that too, of course, because as much as this podcast is about, you know, chatting about various concepts and actually explaining them a little bit too – I do run a business as well, so I’ll be linking to those things in the show notes, but please like; if there’s anything, I guess you want you know to kind of talk through or you’d want the listeners to sort of know based on where you were and then what you got out of it?
Any of of that kind of stuff, I mean I don’t want to interrupt I don’t want to hold you so I want to hold you back if you want if that’s what you want to say.
Vann: Well you know a lot of the time, a lot of the things so I would say the process. The process that you did it the way that you delivered the program was great. Usually you would go online and something captures your attention and in this other thing, but you don’t really know the order that helps you develop things better. Like it’s kind of like trying to run before you can actually crawl, right, and for me it was definitely the process because I knew all these parts, but it just needed to do it in that structure.
Yeah, in order for me to understand right, So building those foundations again? So in the beginning it was about the awareness and understanding that thoughts go through you, and some of those crazy thoughts, they are not who you are.
The moment that I realized it, I was like “That’s pretty, that’s pretty crazy.”
All I’d have a giggle like that’s a crazy thought, you know, but it’s not who I am, you know, so usually.
Uhm, you know just I guess a better explanation of it. Like I got caught up in that perfectionism trap and a lot of it was insecurity or even the fact that I had these beliefs that I needed to debunk I was doing things based on what everybody or what society said was.
Neens: It’s the rules and the shoulds, right?
Vann: Yeah, and it wasn’t until like I went through it with you and just go “Oh wait, let’s have a look at my values. Like is everything that I’m doing in line with my values? And am I moving forward based on those values?”
And then when I looked at that and I was like “oh wow yeah. It doesn’t.“
I always remember the most enjoyable time in my life and that’s when I was what six years old in an open rice field flying my kite and how I felt in that moment and how it was all about that curiosity was all about the adventure. I was excited and it’s like how did I go my life without having those values in there?
You know what I wanted for my life? And it was important that I was like, oh I got it. Yeah, I gotta put that in there. And how do I deliver that? And that was the next thing is learning that continuum meter right?
Right, and the biggest thing with perfectionism and the all or nothing thinking was that you get overwhelmed, and that I didn’t realize until I looked at my values why I was being overwhelmed was because I wasn’t aligned first and then realizing that I needed a way to go about my day where I can cut myself some slack, right?
Yeah, we had figured out by the end we had figured out what wasn’t true, what was true – and then now we’ve got this truth and how do we deliver it without putting pressure on myself?
Neens: Which is a lot and I’ll just add to that that that right there a) that’s the awesome source, but also in hindsight, ’cause I used, you know in in personally reflecting on stuff too, it’s so much easier said than done though, right? then to actually implement the less than perfect stuff, or the they’re just good enough, or the bare minimum.
Right, like it’s still one thing to think about it differently, but so then do it differently is a whole other ballgame, I think.
Vann: Yeah, and I think that’s definitely a reflection of how I coach now as well because I say this all the time to every single person and it’s a live document, it’s always going to change, but you have this this framework to go by that allows you to breathe and process things better and to not get overwhelmed and to check in with yourself with the right questions first instead of shoulding all over yourself.
That was freeing and again like you said, right?
It was definitely, it was definitely tough and without your help and without your coaching I don’t think I would have been able to like bring things back in yeah go back to center and then re-evaluate and then also ask questions that allow me to be kinder to myself.
Uhm, yeah, and again, that’s a tool in itself and to, remember like “wait , we debunked that, remember?
You know, we that that’s not true, yeah?
And those conversations happen all the time and I’m glad I had those conversations with myself and ask those questions with myself now versus the screaming, should and should nots and yeah it’s definitely given me peace with my ideal client, but also my ideal life.
And that’s why I embrace the program so much I couldn’t say enough good things about it.
Neens: Thank you, I appreciate that.
And I think it’s, I don’t know funny isn’t the right word to use here but I will because I can’t think of anything else.
But I find it more fascinating, interesting, I don’t know, maybe those are the better words to use, but when I think about, you know the work that I do with people I still find it fascinating how similar in how many parallels or how much it overlaps, and I know we talked about the at the beginning, but literally every you know all the things that we do as humans intersects with without like we’re one with one person, right?
But also the approaches to, I talk about, I’m almost more a little bit at the top like the overarching mental wellbeing kind of, that’s the space that I’m operating in and I believe you can take that and approach it to various contexts, right?
And but it will in in a way It kind of feels like that that you’ve taken a lot of that, then you’re making it even more specific to movement right?
Because you’re also taking that curiosity part that “let’s explore, let’s not attach an outcome to something or let’s not attach expectations to something, let’s just do the thing for the sake of doing the thing”
You’re able to take a lot of, and I think that’s probably why I enjoyed working with you so much too when it came to helping me, you know, a) get stronger with the body parts that I could still move without pain, but also helping me rehab my injuries in line with physio and other support.
Is that I was familiar with a lot of you know the concepts obviously ’cause I I worked through them myself, but it’s also part of what I coach and support clients with, but to then be able to take them ’cause as much As for for me and my head, they’re actually quite tangible things, right?
Like I know what I mean when I say some of those things, but I think for a lot of people they’re very intangible concepts.
It’s not like you know there’s a water bottle like it’s, you know, look, there’s a water bottle or look there’s a thing that you can see, right?
So sometimes it can be quite hard to explain them, or even to say this is what you’ll get by doing that thing, because it’s an intangible thing, you can’t put your hands on it.
But I think what you’ve helped me realize, and I think what you do really, really amazingly, is taking some of those things but then you’re able to actually give them that, a tangible expression, if that makes sense.
Like you know, taking the awareness and the curiosity piece, for example and you know, applying it to exploring movement patterns or ranges of motion, like that’s a very tangible way to articulate the almost the same concept but you’re saying you know, go in a squat, hold it, move around, wiggle a little bit, you know, move your hips, change your stance, that’s a way of exploring something.
It just so happens that i’s a tangible thing because you’re literally physically moving your body as opposed to I’m exploring my thoughts, but I’m not really sure what that actually looks like you know.
Vann: Yeah definitely and I think it’s really important to mention as well there you know, after we had worked together and then for me you know to for us to switch roles was that we both understood each other in in regards to the program that you delivered and I was like oh wow, this is great, especially because you’re in that position where communication was really important in empathy and support, right?
Because of pain, right? There’s no substitute for it. And then you hit the nail on the head right there like.
Is that right, yeah? With explore right – with explore.
You can you can you know talk a whole bunch of jargon for fitness terminologies and stuff but ultimately, it’s play, and ultimately it’s about exploring movement.
You embraced it, you really did and I had such a great time with you because it would have like we had such long chats in relation to the body to the mind and everything else because it was all inclusive.
Yeah, I really enjoyed that part of it and I was like I’m definitely running with this. You know, I’m definitely going to continue down this path of connecting those things and don’t know, went on a tanget there but…
Neens: Yeah, no, that’s good. I think obviously we can hype each other up all day long probably, but is there or have you seen I guess a difference in how, you know how you’re working with your other clients and how they view things, like has anything changed there? Are you able to see like a difference too without how you know just some of the work that you’ve done on yourself and how you’re supporting them?
Vann: Absolutely yeah. A really good example of it would be when I was a PT when somebody was going through a program and they didn’t like it. You know, when I was younger PT I would go “oh I gotta bring in more bells and whistles” or you know like I’m going to be that like I need to make a name for myself as that guy that you go to if you want to puke because the workout’s really tough.
And now I’m like “oh, you don’t like it or like sorry like you’re not getting what you want out of it. Let’s talk a bit about that. Let’s go a little bit deeper.”
Like “how do we create habits that you actually enjoy so that you can keep moving forward and find momentum?”
And like I’m like, what is it, the Mr Miyagi, like in the back when somebody telling me this stuff, I’m just like oh I know where you’re going and it’s not the program, right? It’s like and that’s definitely what I get excited about I’m just like I’m sorry, I don’t mean to smile, but…
Neens: I mean the amount of times we’ve had that conversation, right?
Vann: Right and yeah and like OK, so let’s have a look at why and the rules can change because we want you to enjoy the process versus , I mean don’t get me wrong like the hard part is realizing you know I’m not afraid of doing hard things but it should be hard things because you have an understanding or a purpose towards those hard things.
Because you’ll always show up, you’ll always show up because it’s, yeah, we’ve gone deeper and I see that all the time now.
I have this smirk on my face and I’m excited and I love coaching so much because it’s not about putting things on, it’s about laying it all out and actually asking the right questions so that fitness and movement is something that you embrace and there’s a purpose behind it that makes you turn up every day.
Like you know, I get up every morning now and I look forward to all the things that I do.
I used to go to the gym and go “oh I just gotta get a hard workout in”, that’s a measure of success.
Now I’m like, oh I can explore like the tracks around my area, turn everything to workout.
Hang off a tree and do pull-ups off that you know it’s exactly the same thing, it’s movement, but it’s exploring all the different ways that you can enjoy yourself.
Neens: That actually reminds me, yeah, that reminds me and I’ll see. This conversation will be released after the 5th but we’re recording it today, but I shared a post and I listened to an awesome podcast with, I just fucking love Brené Brown. Like honestly, I’m like #1 president of the fan club or whatever if I was to create one. I just loved how she talks and how she approaches things and everything else.
I was listening to a podcast I’ll chuck the link into the shownotes, I shared it today anyway, ’cause it was that awesome and it was with another author I think on her podcast which is called How to fail, which in and of itself I’m like that’s a fucking brilliant podcast.
And by the way people, you need to get on it, this particular episode was an awesome conversation but the rest of them are just as just as awesome.
Because they they’re talking about re framing failure right and mistakes in those kinds of situations and what they talked about today and I can’t remember the exact quotes I’m paraphrasing, but it was instead of doing things for the sake of achieving success (whatever we’ve actually defined success as in the 1st place, right?, cause we’ll all have, hopefully we actually have our own definitions as opposed to using some arbitrary shit that we see based on the area that we’re you know, wherever we’re defining it for like, say you know for business, for example, I hope we all define our own version of what it means to be successful, as opposed to picking some random, you know, make 6 figures, or you know only work 2 hours a day or whatever, like it has to be a part like you said just before, right, it has to be a personal thing we have to connect with it, we have to have that deeper meaning to it.
But what I loved about how they were talking in this episode was also instead of having this external success focus, turn it into like by doing the thing, what are you learning?
What can you find out about yourself, about a particular topic, about whatever – it doesn’t have to be just you, but by switching it from are you having to do all the things to achieve this one thing?
I’m not doing it justice so please tune into this episode, but it is literally the way she phrased it, I was like “fuck that’s the shit” because it was really impactful.
Clearly ’cause I’m talking about it but it was really this, “don’t just do the things because a) you think you have to and that’s the entire reason this show exists because you were allowed to question them, you’re allowed to question yourself, you’re allowed to challenge your own thinking.
But also you can do things because you enjoy them.
You can do things because you want to learn about them and it’s OK if you’re a bit shit at them at the beginning too, or if they feel hard, because sometimes that that’s what’s that’s just how it is, but going in with like the desire to learn as opposed to the pressure of having to achieve a particular outcome.
This is that was awesome, so I’ll definitely I know I’ve said it five times now so I’ll be putting the link to that podcast in the shownotes and I’ll probably send it to you after this because it was so so good and I think also by talking about it and it’s, you know partly what I don’t know.
I’m kind of going off on a tangent here too, but I think by talking about those things, but also specific personal examples we’re reducing, we’re making it OK to talk about those things and to also sometimes to fail or for things not to work out the way we’d intended to, right?
And that’s where that learning piece comes in as well, which is so crucial, that curiosity that wanting to explore and discover.
Vann: Yeah, and I probably, it made me think about that section of the inner compass as well is I love that continuum meter and just understanding where to put yourself on that. Because it doesn’t feel like you’re failing anymore. It feels like you’re showing up for yourself and your re-framing all those different things because there are all those things that you’ve put on that list to accomplish things.
And if it doesn’t, you know if you don’t complete all of it. You can carry it over to the next day and then who says that you have to do it within a week? You know, yeah, who says you have to do it?
Neens: You! (laughs)
Vann: Yeah exactly right, yeah, yeah. Somebody told me.
Neens: It’s all you!
Vann: Yeah, but yeah it was definitely that and I embraced the process and that enjoy those failures and recalibrating as I go
And having those tools, having the tools of the continuum meter, it just helped me realize you can make your own rules
Neens: Yeah, you certainly can. That was like the perfect way to end the conversation.
It was a mic drop right there. So maybe with that said, we could probably call it here and bring it to a close.
Neens: But before we do that, where can like where can people find you? How can they work with you?
Tell us all about the good stuff.
Vann: Yeah, definitely so a lot of my things that I have is on @actionvann on Instagram
Neens: We’ll put the link to that in the show notes, of course.
Vann: Yeah, definitely, and I’m just about to finish my website so there’s lots of cool things you know.
Neens: Exciting, exciting will it be live by the time this airs? Because then we’ll be putting it in the shownotes too.
Vann: Yeah, that sounds great. Absolutely it will be available by then.
Neens: Awesome cool. Well thank you so much again for being the first ever guest on this new show.
I am very excited and thank you for the kind words about how, how I I’ve helped you.
You’ve definitely, well you know you’ve helped me heaps as well with my own recovery in my return from injury, so we’ll leave it there, thank you everyone for tuning in and we’ll chat to you soon.
Vann: Right, thank you.
Neens: Stay curious everyone.
Links for you:
Find Vann on Instagram
The Confidence Project episode mentioned in this episode
How to Fail Podcast with Brené Brown mentioned in this episode
